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[00:01:37] Yes. My guest today is Sarah Santa Cruz and is here to talk about humane marketing and ditching the outdated 50 year old icky marketing strategies that are still being widely taught today. Sarah spent over a decade, running a successful LinkedIn consulting business, [00:02:00] but this inspired a yearning in her to create a global movement that encourages people to bring more empathy and kindness into their business and marketing.

[00:02:12] In this episode, you learn what negative impact traditional marketing could be having on you and your business. Number two, the changes that are happening now after the pandemic within marketing globally, number three, the seven PS of humane and gentle marketing. And number four, the difference between marketing and selling.

[00:02:37] Let’s dive in.

[00:02:43] you’re listening to mark two without social media. With me, they’ve guide the podcast for people who want more clarity, connections, and cash in their business. I’ll be sharing with you proven techniques for leading entrepreneurs and experts from [00:03:00] across the. To help you to lock it without social media come to grow your business in a way that actually feels good to you.

[00:03:08] This

[00:03:17] So, hi, Sarah, welcome to the podcast. Really great to have you here. How are you

[00:03:23] Sarah: today? Um, great. Uh, so fun to hang out with you with, I’m excited for our conversation.

[00:03:29] Viv: Me too. So Sarah, I’m going to dive straight into these questions cause there’s a lot I want to ask, and this is a really interesting subject.

[00:03:38] So let’s talk first and foremost about what you see. The problem is with traditional model.

[00:03:45] Sarah: Ooh, I think we can cover the whole episode with that, but, uh, yeah, there’s a lot of things that are wrong with marketing. Um, for me, when I started thinking about, uh, this humane marketing approach, or [00:04:00] back in the days, I called a gentle marketing because I really felt like my clients, they all hated marketing, even though they loved what they were doing, their business, but they hated marketing.

[00:04:13] What always came up, was this word, anxiety, anxious. Like everybody felt like anxious about putting themselves out there. Uh, you know, do applying those methods that the big gurus are telling us to do, how to do marketing or how to sell it didn’t feel good. They didn’t feel in integrity using these, uh, Cheeky, you know, slimy methods.

[00:04:41] And so anxiety came from. Uh, a lot from my client’s perspective, but also from a consumer perspective. So whether it is as you, as the entrepreneur or you on the receiving. And, uh, so you receiving, you know, emails that tell you that [00:05:00] you’re missing out, or that you are basically a couch potato, because you don’t have a six or seven figure business yet.

[00:05:06] And yet this other guru may did. And he’s going to sell you a 2000. Online course, do you know to do it, to get there? All of this contributed to the already exploding level of anxiety in the world. And I was just like, something’s wrong, you know, if we want to do business for good. And that’s kind of started, you know, couple of years ago, well, a bit more of a, B Corp became a thing and decided of using business as a lever for good.

[00:05:38] And while I was like, well, then we also need to change mark. Because we can’t use business for good. If we’re still going to use these 50 year old marketing strategies and sales strategies that were all about. Tricking the consumer, the customer into buying our stuff. And it was all about, you know, it was kind of very [00:06:00] capitalism oriented.

[00:06:01] It’s like sell more and more and more. That’s how we were taught. And that’s how business schools still teach marketing today. We’re trying to trick our consumers to always buy more. Yeah. That’s in my opinion, what’s wrong with marketing and that’s what we need to change.

[00:06:18] Viv: Yeah. And I think, you know, it’s a really interesting thing and tad Hargrave who runs marketing for hippies, if you, if you know, Todd, you know, he talks about this, this idea and this concept, and I can’t remember here, he introduced them to it.

[00:06:30] But, you know, instead of talking about. You know, our potential clients as prospects, think of them as prospectors prospect tools. Um, they, they, they’re already looking, you know, they want a solution, so let’s stop trying to push on people and actually just respect and just show them, guide them toward us.

[00:06:51] If it’s the. Thing that might help them make that decision, but you’re right. I think that’s, that’s taken out with, and it’s very much, you know, as you say that the [00:07:00] capitalism approach of sell more, make more, you know, more, more, more, it’s the only way to be successful, you know? And that, that measure of success is by selling more

[00:07:10] Sarah: without, yeah.

[00:07:10] Like just the word successful. Uh, like if you ask people how, how they feel when they hear the word successful. You will hear that they feel anxious, that they feel not good enough, that they feel like, you know, I’m never going to make it. Why? Because marketing uses that word successful, especially in the service entrepreneur kind of we’re around so often that there’s like this huge baggage of shame related to the word

[00:07:38] Viv: successful.

[00:07:42] You’re successful as you are, you know, you’re a human being, you know, you are, and I think this is the thing, you know, what are we talking, monetary success and what is that to you? You know, and let’s define this. And I think that’s the problem in that the marketing and business world, we use success so broadly that it makes people [00:08:00] feel.

[00:08:01] Really shit about themselves overall it’s humor. And actually let’s, let’s categorize what we mean by success, monetary success, you know, sales success. What is that, you know, because, and stop saying that, you know, business success is defining you as a human being because it’s, it’s not as it at all. Um, so yes, I totally totally see.

[00:08:22] How do you see it, like impact this kind of traditional marketing this on, on entrepreneurs, both personally and professionally in the light

[00:08:33] Sarah: traditional

[00:08:33] Viv: yeah. Those, those icky approaches that you’ve just talked about, you know, outdated. How do you see it affecting people? And I know you talked about anxiety, but like

[00:08:42] Sarah: today.

[00:08:43] Yeah. There’s, there’s basically the people who just put that, like the. What’s the name of the animal, the people who just put their head in the sand and just stretch the ostrich, they just pretend, you know, I [00:09:00] don’t see it. Okay. I’m just going to continue doing this old way of doing things. We earlier offline, or before we started recording, we talked about this person who was doing Facebook ads and could, you know, just realize I can’t do it anymore because I don’t feel it in integrity.

[00:09:19] Because my clients are not getting the results. So that’s the other side of the coins. Like some people just play the ostrich and they pretend, okay, everything’s fine. And then the people who are kind of like, like you and I. Who have integrity and just start starting to slowly realize something is so wrong with this approach.

[00:09:44] It doesn’t work for me even, you know, there’s clearly the results that show there’s a decline in that old traditional model. It’s not working anymore. And I think that will accelerate really fast after these two years that we’ve just been through [00:10:00] because people have gotten more conscious. We have gotten smarter in a way w w we’re not buying this BS anymore, that some marketers are kind of telling us, right.

[00:10:11] So this will accelerate it. And so those ones are waking up to this. Thing where it’s like, I can’t do this anymore. It’s just not working for me. It’s making me sick. It’s making me feel like shit because I don’t feel an integrity. And then, you know, there’s also this whole movement of being whole human beings.

[00:10:34] And so you can be a whole human being and. That kind of marketing anymore. It just does not work and I’m not pointing fingers. I’m I have a lot of compassion for people who are still in that old model because I’ve been in it. You know, I’ve been doing some of these things for a long time, so it’s almost.

[00:10:57] There’s a bit of shame [00:11:00] to say, well, I have to pay my bills. And for now this is what works. So I have to continue to do it. But eventually these people who have the integrity, they’ll say, I can’t do it anymore. It’s either this or nothing. It’s either changed or.

[00:11:15] Viv: Yeah. And I know Martha, back in her book, the way of integrity talks about this as well.

[00:11:19] If you know that there are people who, who will get physically ill, and this is your anxiety, you know, if you’re suffering with anxiety, you know, the physiological effects as well as sort of the psychological effects for those people. Where this is so out of integrity, that those traditional methods, you know, you just, you will feel unwell, you know, and there will come a point where you, like you say that you will have to stop, you can’t do it anymore.

[00:11:43] And that I think is where I got to with social media, you know, I was like, ah, you know, mentally anxious and just, just didn’t feel good. And, and I. Stop. And it was just out of integrity for me. So yeah, I, I, I see that. So, yeah, so I was just thinking for anyone listening, who’s thinking, well, how do I know? [00:12:00] I, you know, if this is for me, if it’s really about like listening to your body, isn’t it.

[00:12:05] I guess what, how do you feel? It’s

[00:12:07] Sarah: not right. It’s like physical symptoms can be, you know, lack of sleep, uh, insomnia it’s. Digestive problems often because it’s not for nothing that we say goes to your gut, you know, it’s like, that’s where you feel it. You’re constantly anxious and you’re feeling like you’re in this hamster wheel of more and more and more.

[00:12:28] We talked about, you know, success means more and more and more, but let’s take the example of social media. If you’re constantly checking how many likes you got and how many views and how much reach and all of that. That creates huge amounts of stress for yourself. Right. Massively. Awesome. So, so all, all of these, uh, it it’s a feeling, but it’s really also a physical symptoms that maybe you are just now thinking, well, isn’t that normal, you know, No, it’s not normal.

[00:12:59] [00:13:00] There is another way. There really is another way in you. You said that as well. It’s like, you have to find what feels good to you. Uh, otherwise, why be in business, you have this privilege and chance to create a business that suits your life and. But then didn’t

[00:13:18] Viv: do that. So I think the big thing here for everybody listening right now, just, just pause for a moment because I’m just going to say this.

[00:13:24] Okay. Marketing does not have to feel horrible. I think people kind of go, I look, the things that I do. So I have a therapist or a coach or whatever it is, you know, or designer. And I love doing that PR you know, bit of what I do. I have to stop the marketing. And I don’t want you to think about that. I’ve got into think of this whole business as a whole, but the whole thing should feel good.

[00:13:48] Cause this is your life. Isn’t it. This is your life. This is what you wake up to do every day. And if you are waking up with dread and I used to have dread on Mondays, why? Because Monday was the day I would batch my [00:14:00] social media content Mondays. Yeah, because of everything, you know, I felt about social media and it’s yeah.

[00:14:08] All of us. So, um, if that’s happening to you, if you’re kind of go, oh, today I’ve got two. X, you know, in trance marketing, take a, take a moment. Okay. Take a moment to let, like, look at why you’re feeling that way, I guess would be the first thing. What is it? You know, what needs to change for it to feel good?

[00:14:28] Um, so yeah, just pause for pause guys. It doesn’t have to be like that and kind of just cannot reiterate this enough and you don’t have to suffer. You don’t have to suffer until you get to, you know, six figures or whatever. Talk is for you. And it’s, you know, six figures. Is that really what you need?

[00:14:46] That’s the question, because that’s the number that’s put out there as success. You know, maybe you don’t need that. Maybe 30 K is enough for you, whatever that number is for you.

[00:14:54] Sarah: So what’s the point of having six figures. If you’re working [00:15:00] too many hours, you can’t even enjoy the money that.

[00:15:05] Viv: I don’t think you have to wait.

[00:15:06] Don’t think you have to wait until you have a BA or a team who can take all of the crappy stuff that you hate off you, you know, what, what can we do now to strip it all back and make it simple because that’s going to work so much better for you. So I just wanted to get that in there because I just thought came on the back of that so much.

[00:15:22] So talk to us then about. It’s humane marketing, because I think a lot of people, you know, we’ve had, uh, Ruth pound right on talking about, you know, marketing for sensitive humans, but humane marketing. Like I’ve never heard of this concept

[00:15:37] Sarah: before. Yeah. Yeah. And it’s kind of a funny story because I was, I kind of hinted on it before I, I started out using the term gentle marketing because similar to Ruth I know ruse, um, I think it’s usually the more sensitive types, the, that the, the impacts people who care for others that [00:16:00] realize, okay, this pushy marketing is not working for me anymore.

[00:16:04] And so I started out using gentle marketing then kind of got into a, I published my book. Initially called the gentle marketing revolution and then got into some trouble with the trademark, um, issue. Um, so a gentle marketer, um, in the U S kind of sent me a seasoned desist, uh, leather. So I couldn’t use that term anymore.

[00:16:28] Um, Side story aside, whether that is really gentle marketing, I let you be the judge, but, but so, okay. I was like, well, I can either fight this or I can, uh, find a new term. Um, You know, fighting is just not my way of living. Uh, why would I want to invest energy in something that is draining and negative? So as like, okay, fine.

[00:16:55] Two years of business building and, you know, building a whole [00:17:00] presence around this term. It’s okay. I, you know, I will rise again after this dark night of the soul. So that’s kind of when I started looking into, well, what else? That’s when I realized trademark. Uh, stuff is huge. Like I just, I guess I’m a bit naive.

[00:17:17] I didn’t think, you know, entrepreneurs would do that to each other, but you know, it’s also cultural, I’m born and raised in the, in Switzerland. So I, yeah, I, we don’t have that culture of trademarks. So anyway, long story short, actually I will say. Because it’s a side lesson in a way about forgiveness, uh, that in order to just move on and say, okay, I’ll find a new term.

[00:17:45] Uh, I had to a forgive this other person, of course. But also forgive myself, like really not feeling stupid or, or hateful against her and say, look, this happened [00:18:00] it’s okay. I can forgive myself for not trademarking that term before. Move on. As entrepreneurs. I think that is a huge important lesson because we get these rocks in the road all the time.

[00:18:13] So how do you get over them and then start fresh. So, uh, that’s when I then looked for a new term and it had to kind of express the same sentiment because I, you know, gentle to me still was important. It had to be, non-pushy had to be gentle kind. Um, And at the same time, I did hear from some guys, right.

[00:18:37] They were like, well, gentle. I don’t really associate with that word. And so I was like, well, that’s too bad. I don’t, I’m not creating a movement. You know how some women create movements just for other women entrepreneurs. That is so not me. I’m like, I love to work with, it’s not just that. I love to work with dyes.

[00:18:57] It’s. I need this to [00:19:00] be a human revolution for everybody. We need to work on this together, especially because the traditional marketing, the one that we’re working against has more male, more yang energy. So we’re like, no, we need this to be a human evolution. So. The word humane, you know, in some circles it’s kind of associated with the, uh, the treatment of animals.

[00:19:24] I didn’t, obviously it has nothing to do with animals, but, but then it’s funny because someone said. If you think about the word funnel, which I kind of talk about in the marketing, like we’re human book as well. Just some of these traditional marketing words, just like the word funnel, squishing people through a funnel kind of makes you also think of, you know, the, uh, slavery, uh, images where you POC.

[00:19:50] Uh, cattle’s going through some funnelers and stuff like that. So I’m like, yeah, I guess it’s somehow related to, to just humane treatment, you know, how do [00:20:00] we treat our customers in a humane way? And then when I heard, you know, those, the Netflix documentary, uh, social dilemma, I think. The guy who founded the humane center of humane technology.

[00:20:15] And so it has a lot to do with what you’re working on to social media, you know, how do we create technology? That’s humane. I’m like, that’s it. That’s what we need. We need humane marketing that is treating people in a humane way. And it has to do with compassion, has to do with integrity. And it has a lot to do with truth telling.

[00:20:33] People want truth nowadays, they don’t want to be tricked or cheated or somehow persuaded into stuff they don’t need. You know,

[00:20:43] Viv: and I love the idea that that kind of V vision, you know, of, of the image, sorry, of like animals to slow turn, you know, and it is like, So often people fight. It’s this push isn’t it in all the [00:21:00] marketing, like they are pushing the cattle through the gates yet they’re into, into this kind of.

[00:21:05] Good and end game, you know, and that’s what’s happening with, with, with so many people in marketing. Yeah. Why people are investing money in things they don’t need. Cause it’s push, push, push. Yeah. So interesting. I love that. And thank you for sharing that, that story. Now let’s move on because I wanted to talk about, cause obviously it’s this marketing social media and you spent over a decade creating a successful LinkedIn consulting business.

[00:21:35] What changed? So obviously you were doing enough 10 years. What was the moment you went? I don’t want to do this anymore. And then obviously led you down the path that you’ve taken now to form humane marketing.

[00:21:47] Sarah: Yeah, it was partly my own marketing that I was like, like I said, I was following. You know, whatever the latest approach in this online world and [00:22:00] the online marketing world, I’m like, I don’t want to do that anymore.

[00:22:03] And I also felt like, well, I’m gonna do this LinkedIn business for, you know, the rest of my life. I felt like I needed to zoom out again. And, and, um, and w one story that I can share here, I grew up in a hippie commune. So I have kind of a specialty. Upbringing that I was hiding from the business world for all these years.

[00:22:27] Right. I just felt like, no, that’s separate. It’s kind of embarrassing. It’s kind of like, non-business like, right. Um, and yet, you know, all, all the people that I grew up with were very much in. I would say into revolution and to a new way of, of, uh, raising kids together, uh, they were heavily invested in politics and creating change.

[00:22:51] And so that is part of me that, that I was just like, I don’t get to do that in my LinkedIn business. And so Willie, when I [00:23:00] had this breakdown, uh, about, you know, either I give up or I find a different way to market, I’m like, well, actually, so this term, you know, the, the gentle marketing revolution came to me.

[00:23:11] I’m like, that’s what I need to do. That’s kinda like my calling. I mean, if you want to call it that way. So, so, so yeah, it was, it was that. And then I remember at the end of the, the LinkedIn, uh, business. I remember I started this LinkedIn consulting in 2006. So I was kind of like one of the first, uh, definitely the first in Switzerland, but among the first LinkedIn consultants.

[00:23:37] And we really had a good collaboration with all the other people in. Yeah, all over the world. And now, you know, all you see is LinkedIn consultants, but what really started to bother me at the end of the LinkedIn consulting. And I still do LinkedIn consulting with, you know, people who resonate with me and clients and things like that.

[00:23:57] Um, but what started to bother me is, is [00:24:00] people who approached me for lead generation. So they want. I would spend time to get to know them and get on a call with them. And then they’re like, how can you get me leads? And I was just like, oh, I just don’t, you know, I don’t want to do that. I’m wasting time.

[00:24:17] But all these people that have. I have nothing. There’s no alignment. And yet, since my title says Lincoln and consultant, that’s what they want me to do. And so I would get off these calls, frustrated my bank account, obviously still shrinking instead of growing I’m like, something is wrong here. And so that’s when I realized, okay.

[00:24:40] I don’t want to be that person anymore.

[00:24:43] Viv: That’s back to that energy we were talking about earlier, before we hit record, wasn’t it in terms of, you know, uh, and I mentioned in my journey, I was attracting people who were saying, I don’t want to market with social media while I was still on social media, but I, I didn’t want to be there.

[00:24:57] And I think it’s the same thing. You know what you [00:25:00] kind of. Do you don’t realize that, that energy so powerful that you’re putting out there and that’s who you’re attracting. So, uh, you know, or, or repelling, you know, whichever it is. Yeah. I love that. So, um, how do you market differently now versus then? So how has the, how have things changed for you in terms of business?

[00:25:21] What, what, what was the big shift?

[00:25:26] Sarah: I would say what, what, I feel like a lot of marketing pro actually probably 97% of marketing programs are missing is the inner work is the really figuring out who you are. Uh, what we talked about this earlier, you know, what your values are, what’s your definition of successes. Yeah, what, how you’re wired, you know, so bringing that into your marketing is so undervalued, just like my hippie story.

[00:25:58] Now, my hippie story is a, is a [00:26:00] great story. And yet I’ve never told that until five years ago and now it’s what really. Yeah. Either, like you said, either attracts clients or repels them because it’s, it’s unique, it’s different. And so, uh, bringing all of you to, to our marketing, I think is hugely undervalued.

[00:26:19] And maybe we say, you hear people say, you know, use the word, authentic marketing. And then it almost seems like there’s a checklist on how to BSN. Yeah. And that’s just like, duh, that doesn’t work like that. Right. You can buy a course on how to be ascending. You actually have to do the, in their work. And so really that’s, what’s changed in, in my marketing.

[00:26:45] I’m like, ah, I’m just being me. I’m being holistic. And, and I feel like. When we earlier, you said, you know, people love what they do, but they love, they hate [00:27:00] marketing it’s because they make that clear distinction between the two where actually, once they realize they don’t need to put on a marketing hat, they just need to talk more about what they love so much.

[00:27:15] And then also talk about themselves and their stories and all of that. But there, there is no. Line between what you do and now you’re getting, you know, going to market. Now, it’s just like talk more about what it is you are so passionate about and yeah. Kind of seeing that deep click in people’s heads. Oh my God.

[00:27:40] I can talk about what I love all day long. I didn’t know that was marketing well, that’s that is marketing. So go ahead and do that,

[00:27:48] Viv: right? Yeah. I love that. Um, yeah, I’m just writing a note on that. I look, I love the idea. Like just, it doesn’t need to be that line at all. You’re you’re you’re [00:28:00] so right. And you don’t need to put different hats on.

[00:28:02] Yeah. Just talk about what you do is beautiful. Um, um, so obviously, you know, marketing without social media is my thing. How does the use of social media. In your marketing sort of practically apply when you think about creating a world that focuses like on heat, like that human connection. Um, and I, I know this was one thing you said today while using like modern technology and all of that.

[00:28:28] Cause we’ve talked about that, that power of actually connecting with people in real life and reducing isolation and all of that. So how does you know, um, what are your views on kind of marketing using social media? Yeah.

[00:28:41] Sarah: Yeah, same, same as you. I see. Definitely a movement away from social media. Um, people are just completely overwhelmed.

[00:28:50] And so I think social media is. Going to be more about intimate, uh, connections and not about [00:29:00] scaling and, you know, traffic and all these big things that used to consider it at, oh, you can, you know, communicate to the masses. Yeah. Maybe, you know, Elon Musk can do that, but we’re not all, uh, Elon Musk’s when huge audiences.

[00:29:17] So for us small business owners, I think it’s going to be more about. Creating or, or having a place to start smaller, intimate connections and getting on a call with someone that you saw on social media. Um, but then you develop something deeper from there. But just an example, just earlier today, I saw, uh, someone posting something about, uh, you know, business beyond capitalism.

[00:29:46] And I was like, oh, I love that topic. And so we connected, uh, or first day I met, I put a comment on her post and then she invited me to connect said, oh, I love humane marketing. It’s very [00:30:00] tightly related to, to business beyond capitalism. I’m like, yeah, I agree. So we connected. And then she’s like, by the way, I’m hosting a workshop next week about this topic.

[00:30:11] Uh, we’d love to see you that they’re, if it’s of interest. And I’m like, yes, it is. You know, it’s like, yeah, I’m interested not, I didn’t feel like, oh, she’s wants to sell me something. I’m like, no, this is in my area of interest. I want to be there. And so I’m going to, you know, I signed up and who knows what will develop from there.

[00:30:33] Right. But it’s just a way of creating more yeah. Intimate relationships. But that means we need to actually slow down and take the time. And, and probably also lower our expectations.

[00:30:49] Viv: Yeah. Do you think that I just gotta ask this because I think a lot of people are going yes, but I, I don’t have time. I need to grow my business.

[00:30:58] I need money. I [00:31:00] need clients or customers, you know? Um, I haven’t got time to mock it in a slow. Um, what do you say to people who kind of come back with that retorts?

[00:31:10] Sarah: I would love to know what they are spending time on, because like you just said, you know, Monday mornings are for content creation and then going over to buffer or whatever HootSweet do schedule.

[00:31:22] Well, maybe you can save time there and invested in long-term relationships. Uh, I feel like. At 20 minute chat with someone goes such a long way and still I’m an introvert. So I’m going to be very selective who I’m going to talk to. Right. If I feel like, yeah, not really, you know, don’t see really anything as a win for me.

[00:31:46] I still will be selective about the time, but if there really is a connection and you feel like I’d love to talk to this person, then this. You know, investing that time [00:32:00] and then maybe, uh, automating some other things in your business. That’s where you save time. I’m, I’m a big fan of automation, actually.

[00:32:09] Not the, not the human, uh, stuff, you know, that’s where you need to invest a time. But. Uh, you know, I use Zapier for example, to kind of automate all the processes in my business. I use what’s the latest tool magical. It’s sort of like a Chrome extension where you can put in all your shortcuts and right today, this morning and said you saved eight hours per month by using magical.

[00:32:36] I’m like, Ooh. Yeah. It’s like the little things, but, but yeah. Um, I would say. Really have a look at the rest of your business and say, where can you cut time and invest it more in human

[00:32:49] Viv: relationships? Yeah. For anybody listening, you know, I have talked about this in previous episodes when I left social media and I didn’t have that time commitment.

[00:32:58] And just the, you know, even [00:33:00] when I’m. On social media or scheduling content for social media. I think there was such a Headspace like a, it was definitely using brain bandwidth just with that stress and anxiety that I obviously felt with social media. And as soon as I left, obviously, you know, I talked about this.

[00:33:16] I launched. I think six weeks later, I create my first group program. I have my highest revenue earning mums. I created relationships already this year. I set myself a goal to kind of grow my audience, um, and blew that out of the water in the. Cool. So, you know, it’s, it’s these kinds of things through relationship building, you know, and it’s so, so powerful.

[00:33:40] Um, and, and, you know, it’s not getting hung up on metrics. I mean, that was just some like arbitrary pick up, but something to kind of work towards in terms of a kind of audience goal. Uh, cause I do talk about math, an awful lot on the podcast, the smell and conversions. Um, but yeah. Um, I think, yeah, it’s.

[00:33:58] Very much about, you know, where can [00:34:00] you use your time more effectively? And I think relationships, you know, a 20 minute conversation, you could find 10 new people to connect with, you know, uh, who I think not approaching things from a. Can this person become a client. This person become a partner is a much better approach because maybe they are connected to many of your ideal clients, you know, and can, can help you kind of put you in front of those people so you can serve them more deeply, you know, and, and if you serve, you know, deeply people, people will come, people will want to come into

[00:34:36] Sarah: your world.

[00:34:36] Yeah. As, as we mentioned on, on the episode that we just recorded for my podcast is. The, the, you talked about the audience, how do you, you know, create more audiences and you said, borrowing somebody else’s audience. I’m like, yeah, that’s, that’s the seventh P of my humane marketing. Medalla this idea of partnership.

[00:34:59] Um, I can just [00:35:00] hold it up. I have it as a mouse pad. My son made for me for Christmas. So yeah, this idea of partnership. You know, obviously in the original seven P’s of marketing that were created in the sixties, that didn’t exist, but, but that’s what we need. We need passion, personal power people, product pricing, promotion, and partnership.

[00:35:24] So it’s really this combination of. A bit of the womb, you know, get to know yourself, get to know your passion, your personal power. Why are you, how are you wired? But then also go into the pragmatic stuff. Like, you know, your product, what’s your worth, what’s your value that you’re adding the price? Uh, how are you going to promote it?

[00:35:44] All of that. So, um, Partnership is like key for the new business paradigm, I think. Yeah,

[00:35:51] Viv: I absolutely agree. And I am definitely seeing a lot more people kind of speaking out about that this year, you know, like, Hey, you know, that’s not working. Social media [00:36:00] is not working. Let’s do partnerships. Let’s do summits bundles, like joint ventures and things.

[00:36:04] So I love that. So you talk, I read somewhere that you talk about empathy, like versus perspective taking what is the difference? Can you talk us through.

[00:36:16] Sarah: Yeah, I talk about that in the selling, like where human books. That’s the second book about selling. Again, my audience, um, are kind of the, the, the givers, the impasse, the introverts, the sensitives, uh, you know, we’re already good at empathy and giving, so you don’t need to kind of explain to us, oh, you need to sell, but more empathy or like, Dada.

[00:36:41] That’s all I’m doing and it’s not working maybe. Um, and so th the, the other thing is perspective taking so perspective, taking means basically you help your clients zoom out of the situation where they are, you know, this quote, where you can’t see the label of [00:37:00] the bottle you’re sitting in. Um, so, so you help them see a different perspective and.

[00:37:07] Has nothing to do with the typical sales advice of, um, kind of creating or making your clients see the huge abyss between where they are now. And then, you know, you wave the magical wand. Ooh. But if you buy my stuff, then you’re going to. 10 new clients every week, blah, blah, blah. It’s not bad, but it’s still helping them see, okay, I see that you’re struggling with this current situation, but what if you did it differently?

[00:37:36] What if you know, you look at it that way and there is a way of. The hole you’re in right now. And of course you bring that perspective with empathy. So it’s, it’s kind of using both it’s it’s using the heart, uh, empathy as heart and using the mind, uh, Taking as more of the mind and, and I’m all [00:38:00] about, you know, th the being and the doing the yin and the yang, it’s like, yeah.

[00:38:05] Um, you, because you see these kind of new age marketers, um, that it’s all about manifesting your clients and, and all of that. That’s not me. I mean, I believe that there’s something else in the universe and energies and all of that. And yeah, I’m a Capricorn, so I’m very programmatic and like, okay. No, but there’s also some doing involved.

[00:38:27] Yes. You know, so, so yeah. Perspective taking is kind of more of the yang energy where, you know, you need to help your clients with the mind, understand, uh, the situation they’re in.

[00:38:41] Viv: So one thing I wanted to talk about just to be really clear for our audience, the difference between marketing and selling. I think this is something that comes up a lot for people I’ve talked to us about.

[00:38:55] Sarah: Yeah. It’s actually the reason, uh, for which I wrote the [00:39:00] selling, like we’re human books. So I came up with the marketing, like we’re human book. Um, that was the new title after the trademark decided. So after, uh, the marketing, like we’re human, right. People kept telling me what about, you know, selling or they would bring a examples.

[00:39:18] Oh, I do this in my marketing. I’m like, well, that’s actually selling. Uh, and so yeah, I realized, okay, there’s a big confusion, uh, between, you know, what is marketing and what is selling. And, and the other thing I noticed is that, you know, how in marketing, there’s the saying that. To sell people what they want and then give them what they need.

[00:39:41] And that’s the thing that a lot of people get wrong because let’s say they’re, you know, um, I don’t know a therapist and they always think, for example, that people want advice about burnout. Let’s take that as an example, but what they actually want is not the [00:40:00] burnout stuff. They’re not there yet, but what they want is, you know, a better job or, or, or a more successful life or, you know, that’s the wants.

[00:40:09] Um, and so it turns out for me, I actually made that same mistake. I thought, okay. Marketing is what they want. Whereas actually, in fact, what they really wanted is knowing how to sell. So that’s how the, the selling like where human book came came about. And that also helps to understand, uh, in terms of the, you know, what’s the difference.

[00:40:34] Well, what you want is to sell, but what you actually need to do before. Is the marketing. So you, when people say, I want to have more clients, I want to sell more like, yeah, but what are you doing for these opportunities to talk to people to occur? You need to do something beforehand. And, and that’s, you know, that’s the marketing piece.

[00:40:59] So it’s almost [00:41:00] like the marketing I in the sale selling like pro-human book. I talk about the gentle sales path instead of the funnel. Right. Talk before it’s like, okay, What if we looked at, uh, the, the, the funnel as a gentle sales path, where you gently lead your ideal clients through your gentle sales path in order to have them a conversation in your serene garden.

[00:41:26] So that’s where you have this conversation. Um, well, on this path, You have different signposts and that’s, um, you know, the, the, the, the podcasts emails, the, the, the, the E free ebook, those are signposts where people can sit down and on the path and enjoy and get to know you get to know what you’re offering, so that then they enter your serene garden and have a conversation with.

[00:41:55] So what happens in the path is the marketing. And then what [00:42:00] happens in the serene garden? That’s the sales conversation, that’s the selling.

[00:42:06] Viv: Yeah. I love that. And you know, I was talking about it as a machine, which is probably like way removed from human marketing. Um, but you know, it, it works for me and actually I saw I’ve got a really great picture.

[00:42:18] I keep me in the photograph. I took years ago of, um, some water cups in Dominican Republic, but I think it was. Type thing. And they tend to, uh, you know, as, as they feel. And I would say, you know, it’s kind of linked to this idea that, you know, it, if something’s not working. So I, you know, getting clients you’re not selling, you know, work it backwards, something further back in that process, it’s just not right.

[00:42:41] You know? Um, and I would say. People like to skip ahead, you know, so you know, it, when I do a lot of work with, with people helping them to, to connect, you know, with their ideal kind of clients to build them and to kind of bring them into their world. And into their build their audiences, you know, so lead [00:43:00] generation.

[00:43:00] Um, but I always say to people always skipped that part. So you think I wouldn’t start on social media and you’re going to start putting content out, but everyone misses like step one, which is like, actually, what is that transformation? What is my offer? You know, what is that end result? Because, you know, All of that content, all that marketing, you know, which again, ultimately you need to do to get to the sales is not going to be on point.

[00:43:23] If you don’t kind of see the first piece, is it? So you know that that’s the cog in the machine. I would say there’s a block there. Isn’t it. It’s just not going round or, or you say it’s like stepping stones, you know, there’s, there’s a, there’s a big gap in this, the stepping stone missing. So you can’t actually get.

[00:43:38] When it won’t work, you know, but yeah, very, very interesting. I love that. Um, so finally tell us how obviously people can connect with you. Uh, I’ll put links for your books, obviously in the show notes as well. So guys, if you want to check those out really, really worth a read, and I know I’m going to be going and [00:44:00] reading, uh, both of those in more detail now as well.

[00:44:03] So talk to us about how we can connect with you.

[00:44:06] Sarah: Yeah, thank you. So my site is So now I know dot U C O U K, or comms. So Um, if you’re interested in finding out more about the seven PS of humane marketing, there’s a one page marketing plan that comes with seven email prompts to really kind of make you think about those different PS for your business.

[00:44:29] And, and that’s the forwards. One page, the number one and page. And then I have a podcast myself, uh, it’s called humane marketing and, uh, you’re a guest on there very soon. So definitely check that out as well. And, uh, well, I’m going to say I’m still on LinkedIn. So if you listened to this episode and, uh, you are on LinkedIn, uh, feel free to reach out, to connect with me there and.

[00:44:57] Customized, the invites are [00:45:00] telling me that you listened to this episode and I’d love to connect with you. So,

[00:45:04] Viv: yeah. Sarah, thank you so much for being on the show. It’s been so insightful. Uh, yeah, I I’ve taken so much from this, so thank you very, very

[00:45:13] Sarah: much. Likewise. Yeah, it was fun. Hanging out with you.

[00:45:16] Thank you, Bev. So there you

[00:45:19] Viv: have it folks. I hope you’ve enjoyed this episode of marketing without social media today and feel inspired to take action in your business, whatever that looks like for you. And as always, thank you. Thank you. Thank you for tuning into another episode of this podcast. And if you haven’t done so already, please do subscribe to the podcast.

[00:45:42] So you don’t miss an episode, speak to you soon. .

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Gentle Marketing

Humane Marketing with Sarah Santacroce

Show Notes

To some customers and even entrepreneurs, marketing can cause anxiety. 

I know for me the practices widely taught as the ONLY WAY to market (if you want to have huge success) caused me anxiety and left me reluctant to market my business, and I see this all too often with my clients.

This is because we are still using 50-year-old marketing strategies: tricking customers into always buying more and more, which is a very capitalism-oriented idea. This is how we are taught, and this is what is still being taught in marketing schools.

Selling more and more has become the measure of success for all of us. 

Our guest today, Sarah Santacroce, is an author and host of the Humane Marketing Podcast. She is with us to talk about Humane Marketing and why we should be ditching the icky 50-year-old marketing strategy that is still widely taught today.

Sarah spent over a decade running a successful LinkedIn consulting business, but this inspired a yearning in her to create a global movement that encourages people to bring more empathy and kindness into their business and marketing.

In this episode, you will learn:

  • What negative impact traditional marketing could be having on you and your business
  • The changes that are happening now after the pandemic within marketing globally
  • The seven Ps of humane and gentle marketing 
  • The difference between Marketing and Selling



Connect with Viv

Connect with SARAH

Here’s a glance at this episode:

00:00 Intro

03:38 The problem with traditional marketing

08:22 Impact of traditional marketing on businesses and entrepreneurs

15:22 Humane Marketing

21:35 Sarah’s move from LinkedIn to Humane Marketing

25:51 The changes that are happening now after pandemic within marketing globally

34:36: The seven Ps of Human Marketing

38:41 The difference between Marketing and Selling

44:03: Get connected with Sarah

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